Episode 10: Learning & Development at Scale

Anni Tabagua: Welcome to BizTech Forward, your go-to podcast for cutting-edge insights at the intersection of business and technology. Let's move forward together.

Hi, and welcome back to another episode of BizTech Forward. I'm Anni, your host, and today, we're going to talk about a key topic for every business: learning and development. It is not just the formal stuff like courses and workshops but also how companies actually create a culture where people grow, stay sharp, and add value.

To discuss all this, joining me today is Maryna Melnik, Head of Learning and Development at DataArt. Hi, Maryna. Welcome to the show.

Maryna Melnik: Hello. It's a pleasure to be here.

Anni Tabagua: Maryna is a certified talent development professional with over 15 years of experience in academia, nonprofits, and corporate land. She's led educational initiatives at the UN and EPAM Systems and now heads Learning and Development at DataArt. Welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you here.

Let me start right away, Maryna. I want to start with the client’s perspective. So, I think my first question is: why should clients care about how we organize learning and development internally? What's in it for them?

Maryna Melnik: I would say they do not—they should not care. They do care a lot already. Here, I suggest that we take a step back and imagine ourselves in our clients' shoes. But actually, we don't even need to imagine ourselves in our clients' shoes because we're all clients. Every day, we buy services as individuals, goods, products, and everything else.

And as clients, what do we really care about, especially when budgets are big and stakes are high? I truly believe that it's all about trust. That's what I believe our clients look for when cooperating with us. Many factors contribute to building that trust. I think one of these is how we are perceived as professionals, as top-notch experts. This is a major contributor to building this trustful relationship with our clients.

Clients want to know why they can rely on us when they decide to entrust us with their digital transformations, whether they're critical projects or some long-term partnerships. Some clients trust us because they've heard about us from others, such as our existing clients. But for those who don't know us, they need some sort of proof.

One example is the RFPs and RFIs we fill out and share with potential clients. Such documents always include questions about learning and development in the company and the potential provider. Our potential clients want to understand how we ensure the engineering excellence we're so proud of.

They ask many different questions in these RFP and RFI documents. For instance, our clients want to know how quickly we can onboard people, how quickly we can onboard new hires in general, and how quickly we can onboard new team members to a project. They want to know how we ensure that our colleagues speak English well, for instance, for those for whom English is not the first language. They want to know how we train our teams on compliance topics, especially with the increased cyberattacks. This topic has gained special value now.

They want to know how we maintain engineering excellence in this super-fast-changing technical landscape. They want to know how we upskill and reskill our colleagues and how quickly we can do that to keep up with the technologies that change every day. And why do they care about these things? Because it impacts them directly. The speed of onboarding affects how quickly we can deliver a service or a product for them. Compliance training reduces risks for our client projects. Maintaining excellence tells our clients that we use the best tools and talents to solve their problems.

So, the fact that they ask all these questions already shows that they care about how learning and development are arranged in the company with which they're looking to enter into a long-term relationship.

Anni Tabagua: That makes a lot of sense, actually. I love that you started with a very fundamental thing. We're talking about business, and it's not just a business thing. It's not an HR thing. This is just common sense, fundamental. Clients care because they want to trust us, so this is very clear from the very start.

But the next thing that I cannot stop thinking about is if we talk about DataArt specifically, we have thousands of people working for it across the world. How do you teach thousands of people? How do you even begin to organize learning at that scale? It just sounds overwhelming.

Maryna Melnik: It may sound overwhelming, especially in a company as large and globally distributed as DataArt, but the thing is, no one really starts organizing learning when they're already that big. It all starts much earlier.

From my experience, I've observed employees naturally self-organize when it comes to learning in smaller companies without a formal learning function. For instance, people take learning into their own hands. Usually, they form communities of professional interest where they share their knowledge. They conduct webinars and store them somewhere in SharePoint, for instance, for others to use. They mentor each other on projects and do many other things. Such informal initiatives usually become the foundation for a bigger learning culture when companies grow.

So when companies grow, scaling learning becomes easier because you're building on something already existing. There is always this moment in a company's life cycle when top management realizes, "Oh, we need to have something more formal, more structured, more effective." And that's the point when they realize they want to establish a formal learning function.

From my experience, this point of realizing the need starts when there are around 2,000 to 3,000 employees in the company. I know this because, occasionally, I'm approached by recruitment teams from other companies, asking if I'm interested in establishing the learning function there. I always ask how many people, and this is the number I see—about 2,000 to 3,000 people. That's when companies realize they cannot handle this anymore and need more structure.

That's what happened at DataArt as well. We've structured these grassroots efforts into more persuasive learning strategies. We listened to the needs of our colleagues, the business, and our clients, and then we shaped our offerings around these priorities. As a result, we have a comprehensive learning ecosystem that's robust and flexible.

I would also like to add that, from my point of view, three key elements are crucial for scaling the learning culture once the company grows:

First, it's leadership support. Without the buy-in of top managers, scaling learning is virtually impossible inside the company.

Second, creating the right environment by providing the infrastructure and opportunities for colleagues. For instance, launching mentoring programs, a library, access to internal and external courses, coaching, professional communities, and everything else—that's the infrastructure and the environment.

And the last key ingredient is, I think, stepping back, not forcing and not pushing. Instead, we offer opportunities and let people choose what works for them. Flexibility is crucial here.

As a result of all three things, professional communities develop inside the company by their own initiative. They develop skill matrices in collaboration with us, learning paths for their qualifications, and so on. We have internal experts who are happy to be mentors, course instructors, event speakers, etc. It's all about creating a culture where learning is accessible and relevant but never forced.

So, going back to your question, it's not about building something from scratch because there is always something, even in tiny companies. It's about nurturing what's already there and giving it structure, shape, strategy, and vision.

Anni Tabagua: Thank you, Maryna. You painted the picture so well. I see now regarding creating the right environment. I'm just curious—you mentioned that leadership support is crucial. I wonder if leaders also undergo mentoring programs. Do the leaders also have to learn and take courses? You know how in psychology, sometimes psychologists have to do their own sessions with their psychologists. So I just wonder how important that is.

Maryna Melnik: That's a great question. I love it. When I say leadership support, it actually has two parts. The first one is when leaders participate in learning—when they participate in workshops and mentoring programs, share books they love company-wide in posts on our internal social network, and so on. So that's one thing: to participate in learning.

Another thing is to support our learning culture and initiatives—during announcements at town halls, conducting their own webinars on specific topics, acting as speakers and instructors, or even sending out a company-wide email announcing some amazing new learning opportunities in the company. So yes, the leaders are both participants and actors in our learning culture.

To add, for instance, when we started our leadership mentoring program, the first cohort of mentors were our top managers—to set the example, set the tone, and inspire others.

Anni Tabagua: And you personally, Maryna, how do you keep track of everything going on in the learning and development industry? I'm not just talking about DataArt, but I want to know the latest developments. I feel like you are very active, and you know what's going on, what kind of awards are out there, and how important networking is. I just want to hear from a senior learning and development professional: How do you stay extra up-to-date?

Maryna Melnik: It takes a lot of time and effort. But people in learning and development are not accidentally there—this is a certain type of person who enjoys absorbing everything they see and learning constantly.

I read lots of reports by respected talent development companies and agencies and did lots of research. I read articles and posts on LinkedIn. I attend conferences and webinars. There are still a lot of them out there. And a big part of my staying up-to-date is networking with peer learning leaders in the industry. We invest a lot of time in that. I can have virtual coffee or go out and have a business breakfast with them. That's how we exchange news and updates.

Anni Tabagua: Now, I want to touch on something that's very important but maybe not talked about enough: growing junior talent. There is a real business case for hiring and training less experienced people. Is that right?

Maryna Melnik: Absolutely. And that's what most IT companies do. Growing junior talent is one of our top priorities, and there are several reasons for that. It's not about just filling roles. It's about creating value for our clients, company, and industry.

First, it allows us to build project teams with the perfect balance of junior and senior professionals. This mix ensures that our clients get the right expertise at the right cost, while our junior professionals develop and grow on the job, which is the most effective way to learn.

Second, it's also about giving opportunities to people just entering the industry. By investing in their development, we're not only assisting their professional journeys but also—for us as a company—it's important to ensure that junior professionals meet our quality standards. And how can we know about it when we teach them ourselves? It's a win-win. The learners, the junior professionals, gain valuable experience, and we get to nurture talents that align with our quality standards.

Some time ago, we conducted some internal research. I can call it this way: We tracked the professional journeys of colleagues who joined us as interns throughout different years. What we noticed is that they tend to be more loyal to the company in the long run. They stay longer with the company. They also become mentors for future interns. And in general, they contribute significantly to our culture.

How we develop junior talents does not even start at the internship level. It starts early on. We conduct a few projects before that, and we call them IT camps. IT camps are a series of webinars and workshops on fundamental, technical, and soft skills topics. The goal here is to spark interest in IT.

If we talk about IT courses, this is something more structured. It's formal training, a full-scale course on business analysis, for example, quality assurance or DevOps, etc. We often run such courses in collaboration with universities, but not necessarily—we can run them ourselves. These programs help us identify and nurture talents early, and then they proceed to internships and develop and thrive in the company.

Anni Tabagua: That's great. I'm glad you mentioned the research you conducted about interns being more loyal to the company. I wonder if the collaboration starts at the very earliest—at the university level, not school or something?

Maryna Melnik: For now, we start identifying and developing talents from the university period of their lives. Yes, for now, that's it. But I agree earlier, like from school, even the first grade... I've participated in such projects.

Anni Tabagua: Really? Can you tell me about them?

Maryna Melnik: I know there are companies that start by working with kids and sparking their interest in IT as early as six and seven years old, when they teach kids to create games using very basic programming languages. And for me, it's a dream to do something like this at DataArt.

Anni Tabagua: Sorry, Maryna, but have you worked with six-seven-year-olds?

Maryna Melnik: I didn't. I participated as an organizer, but I was a software engineer volunteer. It's a way for them to develop professionally. And at weekends, they conduct such classes with kids.

Anni Tabagua: Talk about nurturing talent very early! So learning and development and all these initiatives don't have to be limited only to the company internally, right? How can we create learning opportunities with the client, not just for ourselves?

Maryna Melnik: We really do, and learning doesn't stop at the company's borders. I think it continues there. At DataArt, we typically see two things happening.

First, our clients often notice the expertise and professionalism of our engineers and other team members. They are so impressed that they ask us to train their own teams. And that's what we do. It's a huge compliment to the quality of our people. For instance, we plan to conduct one such training for the IT team of one of our clients in a few weeks. That's one way—when we deliver training to a client and when our experts share their expertise with the client's employees.

The second way we collaborate is by creating blended learning experiences and training mixed groups of our colleagues and clients' employees. This approach not only builds skills but also fosters collaboration and strengthens our relationships. Surprisingly, one of the recent trainings was not on a technical topic. It was on communication skills—a Process Communication Model training. For us, it's about investing in our client relationships and creating value that goes beyond simplistic business interactions.

Anni Tabagua: I like this red line throughout the conversation: learning, relationships, trust. That's good. Maryna, I really need to touch on something that keeps popping up everywhere: data. I really need to know how we can tie data with learning and development. What role does data play in how we approach learning and development?

Maryna Melnik: I knew you were going to ask this question because data has, I think, pushed even AI recently in terms of its hype. Of course, data plays a huge role in how we approach learning and development at DataArt. And it's not only because data is literally in the name of our company.

For us, it's about future readiness. We started focusing on developing data expertise long before the Gen AI hype took over some years ago. Lots of teams are involved in this. It's not about L&D. It's about the Data Analytics Lab, HR teams, the Resource Management team—all of us.

We first keep an eye on industry trends and client needs. We track what's in demand and what's emerging, and we share this information with our colleagues to guide them and help them stay competitive. There are different ways and channels that we use to share this information, starting from company-level town halls where our leaders share updates and messages and encourage colleagues to develop their data-related skills, also during one-on-one meetings or through our Data and Analytics Lab that creates curated learning recommendations, and so on.

And it's working. We've seen an increase in the consumption of data-related training content across the company. If we look at the statistics on one of the external platforms we use for learning, DataArt employees learn 5% more data-related courses than other companies across our industry. So we're best in class, I would say.

But we didn't stop there. We realized that data literacy isn't just for technical professionals; it's a must-have for everyone. We've taken this a step further. We develop DataArt-specific courses relevant for marketing teams, sales teams, and so on. We curate external resources. We encourage all colleagues, even non-technical colleagues, to become fluent in the language of data because nowadays, data is not just a skill. It should be a mindset. That's what we're striving for at DataArt.

Anni Tabagua: That sentence will stay with me for the rest of the day. "Data should be a mindset." Now that we have data, I finally get to ask you my two favorite questions to close and wrap up slowly. If you could give one piece of advice to companies about creating a strong learning culture, what would it be?

Maryna Melnik: I think I kind of answered this question at the beginning. My one piece of advice would be to engage the leadership team, but not really engage—the company's leadership team must set the example by being lifelong learners themselves. It all starts there.

As I've said already, it can be done in two ways. First, leaders can actively participate in learning. This can be literally attending some training sessions or sharing book recommendations the way we do inside DataArt. We have a series of book recommendations from top company leaders. They can share their learning journeys during different webinars. This all sends a powerful message to the entire company.

The second way is about showing public support for learning initiatives. It's promoting something during town halls, conducting webinars themselves, becoming mentors and setting the example this way, and so on. Because, at the end of the day, learning culture is not built by policies, procedures, or programs alone. It's built by people. And it starts at the top.

Anni Tabagua: Great. It sounds very important, and I'm glad we mentioned it several times today. And the last question, Maryna, do you have any unpopular opinions about this topic?

Maryna Melnik: I do. There is this painful opinion, and I have an unpopular one against this one: Learning and Development is not just about creating self-paced courses and conducting traditional instructor-led training sessions. We're so much more than that.

L&D is about helping the business achieve its goals, and this help can take different shapes. For example, it's about launching company-wide awareness campaigns to shift mindsets and behaviors. For instance, that's what we've been doing with crowds when we arrange lots of activities—not typical learning activities—to encourage our colleagues to develop in this area, get certified, and so on. So that's one example.

Another example is developing leaders, but in unconventional ways. Not just through arranging workshops or training. It's about coaching and mentoring the leaders. It's about collaboratively creating skill matrices and mapping out professional journeys that align with the wishes of our individual colleagues and the company's needs.

It's about curating learning ecosystems where colleagues can find the right resources at the right time. It can be a webinar, a post in our internal corporate social network, a self-paced course or a hands-on learning approach, a book—anything.

Sometimes, it's also about saying no to training when we realize that the problem is not the lack of skills or knowledge, but it's deeper and something else. For instance, it's about broken communication, not the absence of communication, poor business processes, etc.

So, we're not just a training team; we're strategic partners, and we're here not to teach. We're here to help the company grow, develop, and achieve its goals.

Anni Tabagua: That's a great note to end on. Maryna, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been super insightful. I hope we talk again.

Maryna Melnik: Thank you. I love the questions and the topic. I can talk about it endlessly, and yeah, more next time.

Anni Tabagua: Next time. For now, and to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed the episode, please like, share, subscribe, and remember, we always want to hear from you. Any thoughts, insights, or questions of your own? Reach out to us at biztechforward@datart.com. See you next time.

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