Episode 5: UI/UX Processes and Trends

Anni Tabagua: Welcome back to BizTech Forward, the podcast where we chat about technology and business with some of DataArt's brightest minds. I'm Anni from the Media Relations team, and I'm here to pick the brains of these bright minds. Today, I have the real pleasure of speaking with Anastasia Rezhepp, head of DataArt's Design Studio.

We will discuss all things design, specifically UI/UX, and practices related to them. Hi Anastasia, It's so good to have you here.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Hi. I'm happy to be here.

Anni Tabagua: Just to give you a quick introduction to our guest, Anastasia heads DataArt's Design Studio, overseeing a team of UI/UX designers, researchers, 3D artists, and webmasters. She joined DataArt in 2006 as a senior designer and became head of the design studio in 2014. Before DataArt, Anastasia was a designer, art director, and web design instructor.

She also spent a year at Bauhaus College in Germany, frequently speaks at UX conferences, and writes about design. That's quite a bit. Again, Anastasia, it is a pleasure to have you here with us. We will get into the amazing world of UI/UX design in a minute. But before that, I want to get to know the person behind the pixels.

So, Anastasia, would you briefly tell us about your journey? How did you get into UI/UX design? Was it something you were always passionate about, or how did this happen?

Anastasia Rezhepp: Well, I couldn't have always been passionate about it because when I started, like when I was a kid, there was basically no UI/UX. When I was very little, I wanted to be a bus driver. I imagined that I would clean the floor of my bus and then have some curtains and flowers, which would be very romantic. Anyway, I finished school with an intense course in English and the School of Arts simultaneously. So I had the choice either to go to the same language department or to continue with some sort of art. The arts won this competition. And I went to the Academy of Art and Design.

I graduated with a degree in information design, which is pretty close to the current-day UX. But at that time, again, there was no such concept as UX. My parents were, or are, programmers; they are developers. That's why my first job was creating a website for some of my dad's friends.

That was basically how I started doing it because when I graduated, I was the only person in the whole department who graduated with work in web design. So, it was a rather new idea. But then, of course, gradually, the UX was introduced to the world, and that's how it continued.

Anni Tabagua: Oh, wow. Gradually, UX was introduced to the world. When would that be? Roughly.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Oh, that's a good question. When I thought about it, like getting ready for this podcast, I thought something very important was happening in the early 2000s, it seems to me. The first books, which I remember, appeared in the 1990s, and they started shaping the whole industry. But for us, it sort of started in the 2000s, I'd say.

Anni Tabagua: Right. So, let's say the early 2000s. So, yeah, we arrived in the early 2000s and did not go 25 years back. Let's rewind just a little bit. And would you tell us maybe what it was like? What was the field like ten years ago? What was the UX and UI situation, so to say, all that was happening?

Anastasia Rezhepp: Ten years ago, it was more or less the same for me, I'd say. Of course, the techniques are developing nowadays. But the most important thing for me is that there is more trust in UX. This means that more projects are starting with UX, which was not so even ten years ago.

They say I can remember because I became head of design in 2014, so that's why I can refer to this phase pretty well. But, of course, a bit earlier, it was completely different. I understand that you don't want to go that deep, but it was such a funny story that I had in 2008.

I think so. When I went to New York, a single person from the whole project team went to New York because the client requested it; the client said, "I need a designer at the start of the project in my New York office." It was a rare case at that time because mostly the managers went to the client's office, not the designers.

So I went there and participated in the meetings. I did something, apparently, but only later, I think, after coming back, did I understand what the client actually meant by this. As it is in the books, he wanted to start the process so that the UX person talks to the users, collects all the information, and starts with creating information architecture, navigation, role wireframes, etc.

But at that time, it was such a breakthrough concept that I even didn't know how to deal with it. Nowadays, of course, it's very different. Nowadays, people, in many cases, understand that it's better to start by thinking about how people use the product and not developing it straight away.

Anni Tabagua: Right. Well, this is a cool example. The one from 2008 also sounds really challenging. I wonder what was it like? Did it feel very difficult and challenging at the moment? How did you solve this?

Anastasia Rezhepp: Well, regarding this particular client, I think I was mostly confused because I just didn't understand what was required in that situation. But we gained that knowledge rather quickly because, if I'm not mistaken, we started the user experience competence at DataArt in the same year.

So we started thinking about it and getting to know the processes. I Googled what we read at that time because we had those meetings, like a group of enthusiasts, where we read certain books, discussed them, and considered how we could implement what was in the books in our work.

Anni Tabagua: Wow. So, it sounds like you relied on books quite a bit back in the day. So, were they books and specific data, or did they ever? Did you ever rely on your intuition, you know, and stuff like that?

Anastasia Rezhepp: So, I'd say we mostly relied on intuition, probably, and nowadays, of course, we promote data-driven design quite a lot. Also, data collection tools are much better. For example, I think years ago, there was no Google Analytics. But now it's quite different.

So, Google Analytics, as it works now, appeared in 2005, maybe then it was also evolving, adding more features. And for example, something that we take now for granted wasn't always there. Let's say when people started using a lot of different devices. Google also added this feature, which allows you to collect information based on ID and not a device, but it wasn't from the start.

So, data collection evolves, and how we deal with this data also evolves. But I think that big and serious products pay a lot of attention to data collection, and they mostly try nowadays to make informed decisions, which is logical because when you see how users interact with your product, it's much easier to understand what else they might need and what you need to improve. At the same time, I think people need intuition in some cases. I also believe that real visionaries do quite a lot based on their intuition because, you know, as in the famous example about Henry Ford, who said that if I had asked the users what they wanted, they would say that they wanted faster horses.

So, you cannot create something completely new based only on what you hear from people. You need some intuition and some vision inside yourself. But if we are talking about regular products, it is better to look at the data. And, as I said, some big products are doing it. And, of course, it's good to start with some data, whether you collected it with user research or from some statistics. You always need both quantitative and qualitative data.

Anni Tabagua: Right. So now we've arrived at the present, more or less. We started to talk about nowadays. Nowadays, UI/UX processes have evolved to rely mostly on data and a little bit of intuition. But also, do you know what I am wondering? With so many tools, methods, and things available now for designers, how do you decide what to use? How do you prioritize what to use? Does it make the design process smoother and easier or more complicated? Which is it?

Anastasia Rezhepp: I'd say it makes it more structured. Also, if you have some tools and data, it's usually easier to communicate your solutions to others because that is one of the main issues designers face. It is very hard to explain your intuition to the audience. So, if you just draw a screen and say something like, "Look at it. It is so good because I had this gut feeling," usually, nobody believes you. And also, I'm always saying that designers are like poor creatures. Everyone is ready to interfere. Everybody is ready to comment on your design. Always. So that's why you just need to be prepared. If you use some techniques, usually it's easier. Well, at first, it's easier to understand what to create, but second, it's easier to discuss it with the stakeholders and the team.

So, for example, if you have a customer journey map drawn, which is a visual artifact showing the user's path with possible frustrations, steps, goals, and so on, it's much easier to discuss it and the resulting interface this way.

Anni Tabagua: I see. Okay, that makes sense to me. You know, I've been reading a little about UI/UX in preparation for our talk and a lot about those methods and what's happening now. And I got drowned in all the tools. Another thing that kept catching my attention is that there is a lot of talk about how UI/UX and designs generally have to focus on inclusivity and accessibility these days.

So, I wonder if you also discuss that a lot with your team and integrate those principles into your work.

Anastasia Rezhepp: I love this trend. It's very important. It's growing and evolving, and I don't think it can be forced because adding accessibility to your product is a big step and a big effort. Unfortunately, in many cases, you need twice as many people and a budget to make your product fully accessible, and if you think that no one with any disability will use it, you won't do that. Still, it's not fair to the users.

Also, I really like the idea that many people can have some disabilities from time to time, like a person can break their arm, for example, and they will have to work with the same system they usually do or have a baby in their hands, which also imposes some restrictions on your actions. So that's why it's great when people pay attention to that.

If we talk about ourselves, we train designers to think about it. For example, when we have trainees, we always teach them to pay attention to accessibility principles. But the thing is that I think accessibility in digital products, maybe 25% is design and then 75% is coding, and some part of it is about content. So, it's not only about design, but designers should at least try to use plugins that check the contrast, the font size, and so on. So, this part is covered more or less if the clients agree that this is important to them.

But nowadays, the government is checking and regulating more products, which is good. So, I think this trend will continue.

Anni Tabagua: Right. I will ask you in a second about other things that might go further, but still, one more thing that just came to mind. You mentioned that everybody tends to have an opinion on design, and it can be quite something. And you know what I'm thinking? Everybody also might have an opinion, but what business value does this bring? How is UI/UX going to help my business? And if you hear questions like these, I'm sure you have. I just want to ask you. So, there is also a business value in good UI/UX; it's not just about aesthetics. Right. So, I wonder, first, what do you think about it?

How is it even possible to measure the business value of good UI/UX? How do companies decide how much to invest and the return on this investment? Could you just quickly comment on that? Very curious.

Anastasia Rezhepp: I'd say it's difficult to measure. I think so because many businesses, apparently, don't care. Well, I think all designers have already commented on the European banking apps, for example, which are, in many cases, just awful. But I think it's partially about competition.

I don't know if those banks want to invest because it seems that everything is okay, but it depends on the competition and what you want to achieve as a business. And sometimes, of course, the important thing is to avoid big mistakes, which can lead to big losses.

Of course, businesses need to invest in UX to avoid this, but it somehow depends. For example, Booking.com appeared at some point, and then, years later, it was Airbnb. And they had a completely different approach to UX/UI, and branding because they were so good-looking, friendly, and engaging.

It's a completely different experience. But Booking.com is still alive, and its revenue is growing, so I'm sure there is a huge team of designers working on it. Only I think they have their audience, and they're making some small incremental changes according to the data and the research they have.

But they don't completely change everything. For new products, I truly believe that nowadays, without good UX, you won't gain anything. But if we go back to measurements, some things connected with the UX can just be measured. So, the number of errors, for example, even now we're working on this case study about a travel management system.

There is a documented decrease in booking errors from 20% to 6% after they changed the whole UX/UI of the product.

Anni Tabagua: Well, those are pretty obvious numbers. I just love the examples of the companies that you mentioned. And what will stay with me is Airbnb's new slogan, apparently, which is good-looking, friendly, and engaging. That's excellent.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe you can offer this as a slogan.

Anni Tabagua: We have arrived slowly at the future. And just to speculate, what will happen regarding UI/UX processes in the next year? We obviously cannot mention AI and automation. It's everywhere. As a follow-up question right away, do you think it will replace certain aspects of UI/UX or help UI/UX? What do you think? Just your thoughts on the future?

Anastasia Rezhepp: I am pretty sure that, at some point, it will replace some parts of UI/UX. Still, it's not completely clear which parts for now because now, you know, I love ChatGPT too, and designers have already started using it, for example, for competitor research for creating a persona. But it's this, as in the books, there is this concept of an unreliable narrator.

So, when I talk to ChatGPT, it's like this unreliable narrator. It tells me something that looks convincing. But you're like something is off. I will go check what it told me. And most likely, something is wrong with the information it gives you. So, you always have to double-check what it tells you. And in terms of, like, UX itself, creating wireframes, and so on, I think it is not that smart yet, but probably for some simple operations, at some point, it will manage. I'm pretty sure.

But we are creating, at least here at DataArt – it's a global trend – like getting to very complex big systems and products. And for them, you need to think. I don't know if AI can think or not. But what definitely is a big step for designers is that they now easily create illustrations and drawings for themselves.

And this is a big thing, I'd say. If you master how to make good prompts in Midjourney, you can easily add beauty to your website.

Anni Tabagua: And you don't have to think a lot about that.

Anastasia Rezhepp: You must think about it; if you want to draw a picture, you must train for years. And in the case of Midjourney, you just need to think about how to make the right prompt. You don't need that hand habit and skill.

Anni Tabagua: Right? That's interesting. And this, just to slowly wrap up, I want to ask you a quick, quick-fire, fun question. It's something that I would personally ask you. If I were to meet you somewhere, I would ask you, what advice would you give to someone just starting out today in UI/UX?

Anastasia Rezhepp: I'd say pay attention to your communication skills.

Anni Tabagua: Oh, wow.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Because it's only getting worse or better, it depends on your approach, but technical skills are definitely not enough for UX designers. I think that maybe half of a good UX designer is the ability to present your decisions, communicate with different stakeholders, decide which opinion is right, which opinion is wrong, and how to deal with those that you consider wrong.

So, it's a big deal. And if you don't understand it at the start, it will be very difficult to work in this field.

Anni Tabagua: This is very good advice, I imagine, for many fields, but I didn't expect to hear it as a response to a design career. So that's interesting. It's like you can supposedly learn all kinds of tools, but can you learn people skills? Exactly.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Yeah. And even though UX design is an engineering thing because you consider different aspects and think about it in an engineering way, it's still very subjective. You will always get opinions from all sides.

Anni Tabagua: Yeah. Also, designers, I feel you guys should have thick skin if everybody has an opinion on your work. Not forever.

Anastasia Rezhepp: It's not easy. Yeah.

Anni Tabagua: Yeah. And if I could ask you a million more questions, I promise I will just ask one last one this time. But these days, what is it that sparks your creativity? What is it in the UI UX and the design sphere? What are you reading, watching, thinking about, or excited about? What is it that gives you this little zhuzh sort of thing?

Anastasia Rezhepp: That's a good question. I think that for the last two years, I've mostly been excited about different foreign languages because that's basically what I try to master all the time. And, yeah, it's not about UX, but some things that are happening in the field of UX I love, for example, this personalization which adds on in different apps.

I think it's really cool. I'm waiting for the apps to be able to decide everything for me because sometimes it's so difficult, and people are so stressed. I think we don't want to decide all the time. We want to be relaxed mostly. So I hope that at some point I will just, I don't know, you know, we had a meeting with designers and with the design team here in Belgrade a couple of weeks ago, and we are always meeting in the same cafe, and we are all tired of this cafe, all right, because how many times can we go there?

And somebody said, "Let's go to another place this time." And then we were like, "Okay, who is going to decide?" And there was silence, and okay, so we went to the same place again. So I think we would be quite happy if we had this app that could collect all our preferences and just give us the best option.

Anni Tabagua: Amazing. So Anastasia, head of DataArt's Design Studio, wants her apps to tell her what to wear, eat, and where to go. Correct?

Anastasia Rezhepp: Yeah, yeah, something like that..

Anni Tabagua: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us, Anastasia. I enjoyed talking to you, and it was fascinating to speak with you. Thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, do not forget to subscribe, like, and share. As always, we want to hear from you. If you have any thoughts, insights, or questions, do reach out to us at biztechforward@dataart.com.

That's all for today. Take care, download some apps, and see you next time.

Anastasia Rezhepp: Thank you.